Now that we have two race rounds complete this year, I thought I'd offer a few observations.

Having more than 2 classes (not waves, but completely separate classes) can present challenges. Especially if you have classes with significantly different machinery and speed variables. When you get 4 (FOUR) different classes (and wave starts) in a single race...it can become a slalom event. Specifically in race #3 at the June 2-3 round, there were 4 different race classes. Those were 650 Prod, Super Dino, Singles, and 500 Twins. For the leaders in Super Dino (and I presume 650 Prod), we ran into traffic by lap #2... This presents challenges such as...

- The classes aren't thinned out, and there are several bikes in a class all jockeying for position.
- They have no idea that the leaders from another class are approaching them at up to 50+ mph closing speed.
- There were at least 2 incidents with riders in different classes, who were running dramatically different speeds.
- Both resulted in crashes...

It's going to get worse. As we head to Sears Point, and a much more technical track, there are very few clean passing zones. With 4 different classes (and waves) on one grid, it could get very dicey. Why risk that? Why not change the schedule in a simple way that would make things much safer for all?

As an example, there are currently 9 races out of 14 that have only ONE class on the grid (600, 750, Open GP, etc.). There are 3 races with 2 classes, one race with 3 classes, and one race with 4 classes. I happen to be on the grid with 4 race classes, and after experiencing 2 races with this format, I think we need to make a change. Aside from never really getting a clean lap (who knows what your real best lap time would be...?), there are real safety issues in play here. With the current Super Dino rules, there are bikes with 130 hp - 150 hp on the track with bikes running 50 hp and even less, because there are 250's running "up" into the 500 Twins class. As the rules for Super Dino have changed, the race environment hasn't, and that could create an issue for both the faster and slower bikes. I believe we need to do three things

- Limit the number of classes on a grid to 3 or less.
- Place classes together with roughly similar power and speed (Open Prod / Open Twins, or, 650 Twins / F2, etc.).
- Always start the faster class first (to limit and postpone traffic issues).

Being one who believes in offering a solution for every opportunity mentioned...here's my solution. MOVE SUPER DINOSAUR, TO SHARE THE GRID WITH 750 PRODUCTION. ALSO, ALWAYS START THE FASTER GROUP FIRST (in this case - 750 Prod should always start first). Lap times for 750 Prod are 1:52 - 2:08 (most are at 2:04 or below). Lap times at Thunderhill for Super Dino are 1:58 - 2:10 (most at 2:06 or below). This would allow for clean track for both classes, and if lappers are encountered by the leaders in one race or the other, it will be thinned out, and several laps into the race. This will make for easier, cleaner, SAFER passes.

Making this change now will ensure that no race has more than 3 classes on the grid. It will also keep bikes with similar power and lap times together, and reduce the chance for incidents between bikes with vast speed variables. That seems to make sense, and because safety should be our #1 goal, this is a simple fix for all concerned.

PLEASE VOTE IN THE POLL!!!

So this is my 4th year racing 650Prod.

It didn't use to be this bad. Yes, SuperDino+650Prod+500Twins+Singles has always been a bit interesting, but a few years ago the SuperDino's were still actual dinosaurs. Now the rules allow modern sport bikes like R1's and the closing speeds are at least as bad as F4+250SB was and as we saw from last round it can cause problems.

Honestly, I see it one of two ways:

1. Change the rules and limit SuperDino to actual dinosaurs and kick out the modern era sport bikes

or:

2. Grid SuperDino with another class such as 750Prod as the OP suggested.

In the mean time, it's still up to the rider making the pass to do so safely. Yeah, we're all fighting for position, points and little plastic trophies, but doesn't mean we can't show a bit of respect out on track for our fellow racers.

That said, I think you'd get more feedback/attention if you post this to BARF. But really you should get all the SuperDino guys to sign a petition to move to a different grid and contact one of the BoD about it directly.

synfinatic wrote:That said, I think you'd get more feedback/attention if you post this to BARF. But really you should get all the SuperDino guys to sign a petition to move to a different grid and contact one of the BoD about it directly.

Aaron,

Thanks for posting your thoughts. As someone actually participating in this race (for 4 years), your opinion is important. You can see (and have obviously experienced) the issues that I noted above, and we all appreciate your perspective. This grouping of race classes, and the very broad performance delta between the different machines, has led to a very dicey situation. What I'm trying to do here is help initiate a simple and easy change before something really bad happens.

Regarding posting this over on BARF...you are probably right. The board members have specifically asked that we post AFM business and issues here on these forums. With a subject this important, and out of respect for the board, I wanted to do that. Now, it's been a full week...and not a single response, until yours. I'll wait a day or two, and then maybe post this on BARF. Who knows...it may be a hot discussion topic over there.

Thanks again for sharing your experience and suggested solutions.

RB

RB,

I like the thought and solution provided.

From a financial standpoint moving 500t, 650p, or even singles seems difficult as most 500t bikes are running the extra class and 650p is the third class for many (650t and f4). SD is so diverse (twins, 600,1000) that the 750 race seems to cause the least amount of conflict (less race entries).

Superdino has changed drastically in my two seasons. I used to be able to keep pace with you guys.

monitoring with interest here, woudl love to see more membership input on this one.

Kaz

Craig, sorry, I meant to reply here and forgot.

Youre right about SDino. I used to race it as well and it has changed a lot.
There has been mention of splitting the class into light and heavy, depending on how the class grows, (or not).
Asfar as moving the pairing of the class, thanks for your input, lets see how it goes at Sears.
The only issue I see with moving it to 750 is that the "small" bikes in there might suddenly become a problem, like f4 was having with the ninjettes.

So dividing Super Dinosaur into two classes (early and late) and calling the early class Triassic, and the later class Jurassic would be cool. Pardon the pun, but I don't want this class to die off, so in order for it to grow, it needs to be a challenge for those racing in it. SD needs asome old iron that is out there just waiting to be built, including vintage bikes, as this would give them another class to race in as well. If SD could race in Vintage, and Vintage could race in SD, there would be 2 races for everyone, and more $$ into the AFM Account. Who we race with wouldn't matter as long as the speed differences weren't unsafe. Just a suggestion, and something additional to the original post to think about.

synfinatic wrote:

1. Change the rules and limit SuperDino to actual dinosaurs and kick out the modern era sport bikes

I tried that. It was decided to allow, essentially, 2001 model bikes anyway. I tried to cap it at 1999. So don't hold your breath on this one.

Splitting it up would be disasterous too. Right now you have, what, maybe 8 SDino Experts and MAYBE 5 SDino Novices racing? Now we split that into OLD/SUPER-OLD or HEAVY/LIGHT and all you end up doing is getting more waves, with less people to race against (like what, 2? 3 bikes max?) and you still run into the same problem because the groups will still be on track at the same time.

I could see moving Super Dino to a race that doesn't already have 8 starts or whatever ridiculous number of starts that race has, but I'm sure that has some cons as well.

I'll go out on a limb and say it.... had S'Dino adopted the '99 rule we wouldn't have as much of this issue . Plus, the novice / expert split isn't helping the situation with the added delays between starts.

Or how about we just make Saturday novice-race-day and sunday expert-race day and that'll get rid of half of the "slower" grid for all the expert classes all together. It'll work the same on saturday as there won't be highly-skilled/experienced/super-fast experts running through the novice "waves" of a slower class.

I know that'd me bye-bye Saturday practice which is why it won't happen, but I really do think that if we're going to have this Novice / Expert split thing, a Saturday Novice-Only raceday and Sunday expert-only raceday makes the most sense. Less grid congestion, less "waves" on track, more time to run more races if the club decides, etc.

KazMan wrote:monitoring with interest here, would love to see more membership input on this one.

Kaz

I would love to see more Super Dino's of the 70's and 80's come out to play. We know they are out there.

KazMan wrote:monitoring with interest here, woudl love to see more membership input on this one.

Kaz

Kaz, I'd like to see more input on this one too...because it's a serious issue. Unfortunately, the traffic (and response ratio) here on the AFM forums is low. We need to change that. With all of the e-mail communications that go out to the membership, we should encourage them to log on and chime in on key subjects. I'd say the % of members who read the e-mails sent by the President and Race Director is very high. However, the % of members that log on here is very low. Why not use one to impact the other? Perhaps starting poll threads etc. on important topics, and then asking for their input with a link to the thread contained in the body of the e-mails that we send out. Seems like a simple way to try to build traffic and input.

antarius wrote:I tried that. It was decided to allow, essentially, 2001 model bikes anyway. I tried to cap it at 1999. So don't hold your breath on this one.

Splitting it up would be disasterous too. Right now you have, what, maybe 8 SDino Experts and MAYBE 5 SDino Novices racing? Now we split that into OLD/SUPER-OLD or HEAVY/LIGHT and all you end up doing is getting more waves, with less people to race against (like what, 2? 3 bikes max?) and you still run into the same problem because the groups will still be on track at the same time.

I could see moving Super Dino to a race that doesn't already have 8 starts or whatever ridiculous number of starts that race has, but I'm sure that has some cons as well.

I'll go out on a limb and say it.... had S'Dino adopted the '99 rule we wouldn't have as much of this issue . Plus, the novice / expert split isn't helping the situation with the added delays between starts.

JP, you were right about freezing the class at 1999 model bikes. Once the 2000 model liter bikes became a factor, everything changed (and will continue to change). It used to be that Super Dino and Vintage were separated by 18 years...now it's 26 years and growing (Vintage is frozen at 1974 and earlier bikes). If the current rule should remain, it will be a rolling 12 years for Super Dino bikes. I guess that's the new "Super Dino", and that's OK if the group thinks that's how it should be. We should just be mindful of the fact that there are key plateaus that are reached in some years where the bikes coming into the class will change it substantially. That's what happened this year as a new wave of 130 hp to 150 hp bikes entered the class. Just something to think about for the future.

Keeping the Super Dino class as one class makes sense - agreed there.

Wally wrote:Craig, sorry, I meant to reply here and forgot.

Youre right about SDino. I used to race it as well and it has changed a lot. As far as moving the pairing of the class, thanks for your input, lets see how it goes at Sears.

The only issue I see with moving it to 750 is that the "small" bikes in there might suddenly become a problem, like f4 was having with the ninjettes.

Wally,

As it is, the Super Dino bikes (with in some cases 300% to 400% more HP) are having to contend with the Singles, 500 Twins, and Ninjettes. This is as bad or worse than the F4 / Ninjette issue. Moving the Super Dino class to share the grid with 750 Prod seems to make the most sense. It's an easy move that wouldn't create a headache for the 750 class, but would create a much safer racing environment for 4 other classes (Super Dino, 650 Prod, 500 Twins, and Singles). Everyone on this thread (and all others I've spoken to about it) agree that this would be the smart move. We called this out before the season even started, and the situation we feared has now developed. At Thunderhill (6/3), there were two incidents between racers in these different classes (race #3), and they both resulted in crashes. Needless crashes... We need to act on this before something really bad happens.

It used to be that Super Dino and Vintage were separated by 18 years...now it's 26 years and growing (Vintage is frozen at 1974 and earlier bikes).

If Vintage stayed compatable AHRMA's Vintage Superbike Rules(I know this is AFM), some 1985 bikes would be allowed in Vintage. Another race class, more $$ for the club as long as SD isn't raced with Vintage.
Side note, if we all want SD to grow, and be the SD it was meant to be, running the newer bikes will only get newer bikes in the class. To me, and maybe it's just me, Super Dinosaur is just that. Dinosaurs, not necessarily Vintage. 2000 bikes are not Dinosaurs.

Just my input.

CoreyClough wrote:

It used to be that Super Dino and Vintage were separated by 18 years...now it's 26 years and growing (Vintage is frozen at 1974 and earlier bikes).

If Vintage stayed compatable AHRMA's Vintage Superbike Rules(I know this is AFM), some 1985 bikes would be allowed in Vintage. Another race class, more $$ for the club as long as SD isn't raced with Vintage.
Side note, if we all want SD to grow, and be the SD it was meant to be, running the newer bikes will only get newer bikes in the class. To me, and maybe it's just me, Super Dinosaur is just that. Dinosaurs, not necessarily Vintage. 2000 bikes are not Dinosaurs.

Just my input.

Corey,

You are absolutely right! What's more, I actually created and presented a proposal 2 - 3 years back which suggested expanding Vintage to be more "real world", and in line with other clubs. My proposal would have allowed bikes up to 1992 into the Vintage class, and - I believe - would have created MUCH HIGHER Vintage class entries, and overall growth. Sadly, my proposal was rejected. As it is now, only 1 - 3 racers enter Vintage on a regular basis...and that's a shame.

Other clubs (such as the now defunct, but soon to be back) WSMC, and WERA allow bikes from the 80's and even early 90's...why shouldn't we?

- Do we really want to grow the class...or are we just stuck on what the idea of "Vintage" should be?
- Will we still have a 1974 cut off for Vintage bikes in 2024...50 years later?
- When will we change to make OUR vintage class more realistic and generate new interest, more entries, and economic growth for the AFM?

I know of several racers who - if the rules change I suggested were adopted - would race Vintage almost immediately (myself included). We should capture these opportunities, and put some memorable, capable, and very cool older bikes back on the track.

I have to say...the AFM is REALLY TRYING now. It's obvious by the e-mails we get regularly with new ideas and ways to generate interest. Think about it..."Swap Meet", "Exhibition Races", "New Racer Rewards", and the list goes on. I took a wait and see attitude this year with the change in leadership, but I have to say...the board is REALLY TRYING HARD to think of ways to grow the club, and keep us prosperous long term. For THAT, I give Berto, Barb, and the entire AFM board a BIG THUMBS UP!

Hi Craig,
so, the intent from last year was to stop SD at Y2k, not 2001 as JP has mentioned. That will have to wait until rules meetings of course, but I'd be happy to Champion the matter.
have you spoken with Berto on the class alignment? The president sets these (and the race order). I'll try to talk with him about it as well.

JP-- last year SD grew from 10-12 bikes to 16. We (the BoD) were thinking it would continue to grow, obviously, it has not. I dont blame this completely on the year allowance (of 2000 models), as all class entries are low, but i do think it has had an effect.

Thanks everyone for the great comments and discussion! Please keep it going!

I honestly think the novice/expert split has more to do with smaller grids (in Dino) than anything else, but the fact that I can also be facing a late model 2000 (so actually a 2001) GSXR1000 has a lot to do with it too.

So, our last round at Sears Point provided more challenges in this race...

Specifically, there were two incidents that significantly changed the outcome of this race. First, was a red flag - which is exactly what we've been concerned about, and is likely to continue if all four of these classes are run together. We all hope that we'll never see a red flag in our race...because it can only mean bad news. If we don't do something to separate these race classes with significant power and speed variables, we're likely going to see red flags ongoing in this race. What are we waiting for...?

Second, there was nearly contact between one of the bikes in the slower classes, and the leader in Super Dino. The incident occurred in turn #1 where the slower bike didn't hold his line, making an unexpected move, and forcing the leader in the Super Dino race (who had a commanding lead, and would have won the race), to take major evasive action, and actually run off course to avoid a collision. This was needless, and is something that shouldn't be a regular part of this race. That said, until we separate these classes (with up to 100 HP variables between bikes), it will continue to be an issue.

What is our plan for this? We've already had several crashes and countless incidents between the bikes in the different race classes (Super Dino, 650 Prod, 500 Twins, and Singles) in this race, and we're only 3 rounds into the year. What more will have to happen before we make a simple change (like gridding Super Dino with 750 Prod), to reduce indidents between the groups and create a safer racing environement?

Dave, Berto...your thoughts?